Comments on: “Alternative to . . .” Seeking New Ways of Presenting The Message. http://gracecatholic.net/archives/25 A Grace Catholic Project Tue, 09 Aug 2011 12:28:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Bože! » Blog Archive » Shifting Sand - Where Do We Go From Here? http://gracecatholic.net/archives/25/comment-page-1#comment-361 Bože! » Blog Archive » Shifting Sand - Where Do We Go From Here? Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:17:36 +0000 http://gracecatholic.net/2007/01/%e2%80%9calternative-to-%e2%80%9d-seeking-new-ways-of-presenting-the-message/#comment-361 [...] On the other hand, I’m embarrassed because it raises the spectre of an issue I’ve been banging on about for a while - if we present ourselves as a single issue community, or as an alternative to [insert your [...] [...] On the other hand, I’m embarrassed because it raises the spectre of an issue I’ve been banging on about for a while – if we present ourselves as a single issue community, or as an alternative to [insert your [...]

]]> By: Alexis http://gracecatholic.net/archives/25/comment-page-1#comment-23 Alexis Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:46:00 +0000 http://gracecatholic.net/2007/01/%e2%80%9calternative-to-%e2%80%9d-seeking-new-ways-of-presenting-the-message/#comment-23 John,<br /><br />Absolutely right! it is as you say "shot through" the whole movement. What is more, I have seen its destructive effects off & on in the life of my own community over the years.<br /><br />One example which happened at our Synod in 2005 is worth sharing - two priests we had at the time were very critical of our closing liturgy for no other reason than that local Anglo-Catholics would not approve!<br /><br />My response, that we are not Anglicans, and that we are not answerable to Anglicans (or anyone else outside our own community and tradition); moreover that another community that cannot respect us for being authentic to our own tradition, rather than mimicing theirs is not a community we ought to be engaged with, was met with some . . . "extreme" words. Why? Because they, like so many in our community were not OC/IC believers, they were "Anglicans [insert your favourite Christian-ism here]" waiting for their true home church to accept them and their positions so that they could go home.<br /><br />This is only one example, but the fact is, my own community has worked very hard over the past six or so years to cultivate among our own an understanding and an identity that we are part of an authentic tradition independent of the judgemetns of the "other churches". This incident demonstrates however, that we have a long way to go yet before we successfully turn the tables on the problem.<br /><br />The sense that we OC/IC folk are little more than a temporary alternative to, or a reaction against [insert your favourite Christian-ism here] has been so much a part of the language and imagery of the movement for at least 20 years now. It will take more of us cooperating in varied ways to overcome it - and to heal the gaping wounds that it causes on a regular basis among our own ranks. John,

Absolutely right! it is as you say “shot through” the whole movement. What is more, I have seen its destructive effects off & on in the life of my own community over the years.

One example which happened at our Synod in 2005 is worth sharing – two priests we had at the time were very critical of our closing liturgy for no other reason than that local Anglo-Catholics would not approve!

My response, that we are not Anglicans, and that we are not answerable to Anglicans (or anyone else outside our own community and tradition); moreover that another community that cannot respect us for being authentic to our own tradition, rather than mimicing theirs is not a community we ought to be engaged with, was met with some . . . “extreme” words. Why? Because they, like so many in our community were not OC/IC believers, they were “Anglicans [insert your favourite Christian-ism here]” waiting for their true home church to accept them and their positions so that they could go home.

This is only one example, but the fact is, my own community has worked very hard over the past six or so years to cultivate among our own an understanding and an identity that we are part of an authentic tradition independent of the judgemetns of the “other churches”. This incident demonstrates however, that we have a long way to go yet before we successfully turn the tables on the problem.

The sense that we OC/IC folk are little more than a temporary alternative to, or a reaction against [insert your favourite Christian-ism here] has been so much a part of the language and imagery of the movement for at least 20 years now. It will take more of us cooperating in varied ways to overcome it – and to heal the gaping wounds that it causes on a regular basis among our own ranks.

]]> By: John Plummer http://gracecatholic.net/archives/25/comment-page-1#comment-22 John Plummer Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:50:00 +0000 http://gracecatholic.net/2007/01/%e2%80%9calternative-to-%e2%80%9d-seeking-new-ways-of-presenting-the-message/#comment-22 In thinking more about this, it occurs to me how pervasive the reactive identity is - so much of the usual language in the independent movement is shot through with it. For example, how often do we hear people describe their communities as possessing "valid apostolic succession"? Why not just "apostolic succession" or the "historic episcopate"? Valid according to whom? I think the not-so-subtle implication is "valid according to Rome (or Canterbury)," even though these larger churches have never issued such an evaluation. (And, even if they had, as you say, Who cares?) In thinking more about this, it occurs to me how pervasive the reactive identity is – so much of the usual language in the independent movement is shot through with it. For example, how often do we hear people describe their communities as possessing “valid apostolic succession”? Why not just “apostolic succession” or the “historic episcopate”? Valid according to whom? I think the not-so-subtle implication is “valid according to Rome (or Canterbury),” even though these larger churches have never issued such an evaluation. (And, even if they had, as you say, Who cares?)

]]> By: Alexis http://gracecatholic.net/archives/25/comment-page-1#comment-21 Alexis Mon, 08 Jan 2007 16:49:00 +0000 http://gracecatholic.net/2007/01/%e2%80%9calternative-to-%e2%80%9d-seeking-new-ways-of-presenting-the-message/#comment-21 Thanks for that!<br /><br />As an aside - I think the fact that most of our clergy are volunteers is one of our biggest selling points. It means we are not preaching for our paycheque. To my mind, this has many advantages that we could develop. Thanks for that!

As an aside – I think the fact that most of our clergy are volunteers is one of our biggest selling points. It means we are not preaching for our paycheque. To my mind, this has many advantages that we could develop.

]]> By: John Plummer http://gracecatholic.net/archives/25/comment-page-1#comment-20 John Plummer Mon, 08 Jan 2007 16:18:00 +0000 http://gracecatholic.net/2007/01/%e2%80%9calternative-to-%e2%80%9d-seeking-new-ways-of-presenting-the-message/#comment-20 Hi Alexis -<br />Amen. You have articulated the issues at hand better than I have. In my opinion, getting over reactive/protest identities is *the* issue for the independent movement (call it what you will) today. <br /><br />Part of the task, IMO, is to simply look at who we already are, and how the reality of "church" is already arising among us - *without* jumping too quickly to comparisons to the big churches, or judgments based on their rules and theologies. Rather, we can simply say, "Wow - this is how the Spirit seems to be growing church in our midst. What can we learn from this about who we are called to be?"<br /><br />From this perspective, some aspects of our communities which have been seen as embarrassing(e.g., a large percentage of the community ordained to some level of ministry, serving as volunteers rather than paid professionals) might rather point us toward discovering an ecclesiology which is more true to our calling.<br /><br />Best,<br />John Hi Alexis -
Amen. You have articulated the issues at hand better than I have. In my opinion, getting over reactive/protest identities is *the* issue for the independent movement (call it what you will) today.

Part of the task, IMO, is to simply look at who we already are, and how the reality of “church” is already arising among us – *without* jumping too quickly to comparisons to the big churches, or judgments based on their rules and theologies. Rather, we can simply say, “Wow – this is how the Spirit seems to be growing church in our midst. What can we learn from this about who we are called to be?”

From this perspective, some aspects of our communities which have been seen as embarrassing(e.g., a large percentage of the community ordained to some level of ministry, serving as volunteers rather than paid professionals) might rather point us toward discovering an ecclesiology which is more true to our calling.

Best,
John

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