We actually use conference calls for a lot of things—everything from weekly seminary classes, weekly novitiate formation, monthly prayer/fellowship for professed religious, etc. We also do what I call “random phone vespers”—pretty much anyone in the jurisdiction, who just happens to want to pray with other folk, can put a notice up on our yahoo group to see if anyone is up for vespers via conference call that night or the next day–as long as there’s one other person, it happens. There are some weeks when some of us are on the phone 2-3 nights—this in addition to the weekly Sunday Mass, weekly Wednesday Vespers, and monthly Friday contemplative Vespers.

So there are several opportunities for people who are at a distance to keep in touch and worship together on a regular basis. It’s not always ideal and it doesn’t replace being part of a local Christian community but it does seem to keep people connected to each other and to the jurisdiction. The majority of us are also on Facebook and that helps with having a sense of what is going on in people’s daily lives—it’s incomplete, of course, but it’s a nice way to share daily things with people in the jurisdiction.

If Skype permitted multiple people on video, it’d be something to seriously consider. The main caveat would be that there’s a range of financial and technological resources across the jurisdiction so it’s not such an attractive proposition to begin something that would automatically exclude folk due to economics or technology.

I think the trick for us isn’t so much using any new type of technology—it’s mostly phone stuff. It’s more a matter of having regularly scheduled times to interact/pray across a distance that we all commit to as a community.

(Our jurisdiction permits priests to celebrate Eucharist in private so that’s not an issue for the ICCC clergy. +Tim talks about it in John Plummer’s book (The Many Paths of the Independent Sacramental Movement).)

yes, it worked rather well, my tiny community here in London with Huw in NY. We took “parts” until the anaphora when we did it simultaneously at our individual altars.Then we took time to visit afterward. Looking forward to doing it again.

About two years ago . . . or is it three now. . . when we had more people in the synod – we did a Sunday evening prayer once every two weeks via skype. Each time someone else in the community would “lead” it. That worked really well too. We often had folks from three or four different places on the call (with more than two – you don’t get video on SKYPE).

I think Tim, Joseph, & Lyngine have a similar project going – you might get some ideas from them too.

It’s well worth the go.

Our celebrating with Huw two weeks ago so he did not have to be alone was a real treat. The idea is not novel – but has been done via one media or another by other churches (and usually invovling football stadiums – grin). I can see this as one way – at least – where very small communities, or individual clergy who find themselves alone in the wilderness – can come together for worship & fellowship – to encourage one another – and to ensure a continuity of community life.

This is slightly off topic, but I won’t serve a liturgy alone, either: how can the gathered community (2 or 3) make the Eucharistic presence if there is no gathered community? Recently Alexis and I tried a new thing. I have been in the same situation but for a couple of times recently. Alexis and I did a concelebrated liturgy where each of us were at our altars united by internet video and audio via Skype. We each did parts of the liturgy (as normal in the cases of concelebration), serving communion at our own altars. This provided us each with the opportunity to commune and offered a couple of ideas for use of interent technology for evangelism and outreach.

I think that my concern was / is that by being involved in more than one worshipping community the urgency to community build can suffer….hurting both the OC/IC fellowship as well as the more established parish. This is why for over a year I celebrated the Eucharist week in, week out….my passion was to build a living weekly Eucharistic fellowship. When the fellowship evolved into something else, a monthly Eucharistic celebration…..I must admit at first I felt a sense of personal failure, but I began to see that the fact that people were now coming regularly (where as previously they hadn’t) meant that it was fulfilling a role, a spiritual need, a need that they hadn’t encountered outside the ISM.

However, the fact that we only celebrate the Eucharist monthly, and I wish to be present at the Eucharist weekly means that I do have to attend other churches (I do know of OC/IC priests who say Mass alone…but for me this presents several theological problems…). At first this did concern me, was I being true to my IC/OC vocation? Now, as I said in the previous posting, I take a more pragmatic view…which translates on the ground as being committed to the ISM but understanding that in order to be present at the Eucharist weekly necessitates that I also attend another church. I think the metaphor that Lyngine employs gets to the heart of what I’m striving to say: “it’s something like being an American citizen but living in a foreign country—one doesn’t stop being an American citizen, either in identity or obligation, just because one doesn’t live exclusively in the USA.”

I guess the question I’ve been wanting to ask on this thread is “To whom does it suggest a lack of commitment?” And I ask this because it gets to the heart of OC/IC identity and what that means.

If the concern is that involvement in non-OC/IC denominations is detrimental because of how *others* perceive us, then I’m not convinced that this is an adequate reason because it means our actions or lack thereof depend on what others think—in which case, we should just hang it up right now and walk away if our motivation rests on what others think about us. I’m resigned to the fact that a good part of mainstream Christianity and others will never see us as legitimate and that no amount of policing will ever get rid of the “crazies” in the movement. I think we’re better off focusing on building local community and on ministering to the people who God puts in our path—there’s more than enough work just focusing on that and if anything, worrying overmuch about the odder parts of the OC/IC/ISM is a huge distraction and detracts from our ability to do our ministries well.

If the concern is that the involvement is detrimental because it affects the spiritual life of an OC/IC person, then that for me is a bigger issue BUT quite frankly, that lies within the realm of internal forum—and is between that individual, God, and in most cases their jurisdictional community. For some, involvement with another denomination can feed an unhealthy seeking for external validation BUT for others it can be a saving grace in the midst of geographic isolation from their jurisdictional family. I say this even as someone from a jurisdiction that is heavily committed to building community and with members who keep in touch and pray regularly (weekly if not more often) via web and telephone as well as in person.

Finally, I should emphasize that none of our clergy have “dual citizenship”—we require that their primary affiliation is with the jurisdiction although they may be involved in local congregations of other denominations—it’s something like being an American citizen but living in a foreign country—one doesn’t stop being an American citizen, either in identity or obligation, just because one doesn’t live exclusively in the USA.

In the end being OC/IC has to be free choice in the midst of 1000′s of other choices that can seem more attractive for external reasons. At some point, any OC/IC clergy or lay person has to decide that being OC/IC is where God most calls them to be—and that means that one has to be able to be secure with that in all settings. For me, involvement with other denominations has never been about commitment to the Indie movement. In all honesty, I would find it beyond appalling if someone told me that they were in desperate spiritual need of a local community to pray with but were staying away because they were committed to the Indie movement—because in that case, they are putting the Indie movement before God and their spiritual well-being–and that to me is unacceptable and raises commitment to the Indie movement to the level of idolatry.

As an ideal I would agree with Alexis that if we are serious about the valid contribution that OC/IC makes within the Christian tradition then it is unwise, for a number of reasons, to be heavily involved in another Church. It suggests, at best, a lack of commitment to one or other of the ecclesial traditions that we are active in. At worst, it can demonstrate, as Tim observes, an obsession for recognition by the mainstream.

However, on the ground things can be different for a wide variety of reasons. I have been involved in OC/IC ministry since 2006, prior to that I had been active as an indie lay person. On moving to a new area, shortly after my ordination, I attempted to start a ministry, the intention being that it would meet for the Eucharist each Sunday. For a year I patiently offered the Eucharist week in week out…the ministry did not grow, during this wilderness phase I questioned how I could, secure as I was with my priestly vocation, see no fruit from all the effort that I and one or two others had employed. Then I began to realise that I was so tied to the archetypal ideal of a Eucharistic community meeting weekly that I had failed to connect with what was needed on the ground. After listening to local contacts within the GLBT Christian movement I discovered that what people wanted locally was not another denomination but an open, reflective Christian space where they could feel free to express opinions, theological and social, which would not be acceptable to many of the ‘big tent’ churches. So we now meet monthly, average attendance about 5, to offer the Eucharist and to minister to one another. I hope that the spirituality that we as community have generated, has an impact, however small and indiscernible in objective terms, on the home denominations that members of the community attend on a weekly basis.

As for myself, as an OC/IC priest I would feel odd having ‘dual citizenship’ with another church however I do need to be ministered to when the community is not meeting. I have attempted to solve this conundrum by attending welcoming local churches on an ‘ad hoc’ basis. I would not accept any office in these communities as that would be counter to my commitment to the indie movement, rather when I go I go as a guest. I appreciate that this is far from perfect, but in England in particular, we operate in an environment, as Alexis has mentioned, that is far from conducive to community building…so I’ve shifted from indie ‘idealism’ to optimistic pragmatism.